Should Jess Write a Book? | Interview By Tucker Max

Episode 415, Tucker Max

Tucker Max

Tucker Max is the co-founder of Scribe Media, a company that helps people write, publish and market their books.

He has written four New York Times Best Sellers, which have sold over 4.5 million copies worldwide. He's credited with being the originator of the literary genre, “fratire,” and is only the third writer (after Malcolm Gladwell and Michael Lewis) to ever have three books on the New York Times Nonfiction Best Seller List at one time. He was nominated to the Time Magazine 100 Most Influential List in 2009.

He received his BA from the University of Chicago in 1998, and his JD from Duke Law School in 2001. He currently lives in Austin, Texas, with his wife Veronica and three children.

Follow Him on Linkedin.

Below is an auto-generated text from the podcast recording:

Jess: Today on the show we've got Tucker Max back on and we're going to go for a different format. This was Tucker's idea and I was really excited. He suggested it. so what are we going to do today, Tucker?

[00:00:11] Tucker: So today we are going to walk through a basic book positioning process and see if you have a book in you.

[00:00:18] If there's an audience that would care about it, and if it makes sense for you to write it. Okay.

[00:00:23] Jess: I love it. and. For people who like today's show and they want to check out your company more and they want to go through processes like this. I know you've got a lot of free resources. You've got a lot of great content out there because I've been watching a bunch of it on YouTube and go into your site and downloading your PDFs.

[00:00:39] Where do you send people first? Where do you like to direct people?

[00:00:43] Tucker: If you're not sure the best place to start is probably scribe books, school.com like that. Will you just put in your email and then there is a massive course, that you can start immediately. And the first video is kind of a little bit like what we're gonna work through today, which is, should you write a book?

[00:01:00] The next video is what kind of books should you write? And so by the time you're done with 30 minutes, you can know, yes, I should write a book. I want to write a memoir. No, I shouldn't write a book. Yes. I should write a book, but I'm going to write a nonfiction business book for whatever. And then we have like a memoir track and a nonfiction track.

[00:01:17] The info is all free. Like our services obviously cost money. You don't need to buy any of it to get the entire course for free.

[00:01:25] Jess: I love it. Okay. Well you, you're in charge of this time?

[00:01:28] Tucker: Alright. Excellent. So we've already established, you want to write a book or at least you think you might want to write a book, right?

[00:01:33] Yep. Okay. All right. So the first big question, then the most important question. What are you hoping to accomplish with your book?

[00:01:42] Jess: I'm hoping to write a book that attracts people to want to come invest in our real estate investment trust.

[00:01:49] Tucker: All right. So you want investors?

Jess: Yup.

[00:01:56] Investors in your REIT. Alright. Alright, cool. So tell me, give me, tell me who these people are. Who's this audience, cause this sounds like a pretty niche audience, which is totally okay for a book. In fact, it's better, the more niche the possible, but like an investors in a, in a REIT like, I don't know who those people are.

[00:02:12] Tell me.

[00:02:13] Jess: Yeah. at least for ours, I mean, it's different for if you're Blackstone or something. Right. but for us who we're targeting is the millionaire entrepreneur, like my buddies, who they make a bunch of money at their company. They like real estate. Maybe they own some real estate, but they don't consider themselves like a real estate genius.

[00:02:31] You know, like they really like the idea of, you know, solid, reliable, passive income for the long term. They don't want to be a landlord, but you know, investment funds, real estate funds kind of feels like a bit of a black box. And so, you know, it seems pretty basic, but the industry has made them feel dumb, you know?

[00:02:51] And so, they're interested in it, but, maybe they don't want to look dumb by asking questions that they feel like they should already know the answer to or stuff like that

[00:03:02] Tucker: is this. So again, I don't know this industry very well. Is that a thing that REITs and other funds like that make people feel dumb?

[00:03:09] Cause they they're very opaque.

[00:03:11] Jess: No, I think the I'm just talking about the finance world in general. You know, the finance people, we always are invite in like inventing more complicated words for things we could say simply so that we sound smart. You know what I mean? It's like Warren Buffet says the, the high priests of finance need to use all this complicated language to make people feel dumb enough that they have to pay their fees, you know?

[00:03:34] Tucker: Yeah. So academics do the same thing. Somalia wine experts always do this. Yes. Yeah.

[00:03:43] Jess: So it's, it's the entrepreneur who they've made great money doing something else. Maybe they sold their company. Maybe they're just have good cash flow. but either they, like, if they're, if they just have good cash flow in their business, but they maybe feel like they have too many eggs in one basket.

[00:03:59] So they're looking for an alternative stream of income that they can just kind of set it and forget it and just not have to worry about money ever again, you know? so owning like boring, reliable apartment buildings or. Or industrial space for Amazon warehouses like that, you know, it's just kind of plain vanilla.

[00:04:16] Nobody's getting rich, but nobody's losing their money, you know, and it's, it pays way more than bonds. You know, you look at the average dividend stock on the stock market is paying about 2% per year right now. And we're paying kind of half cashflow, half appreciation. We're probably going to hit closer to 8%, you know?

[00:04:35] So. You know that the cash flow element is somewhere between double to triple what they're getting out of dividend stock, which is way more than, than a bond, right. Without necessarily taking huge startup risk or typical business risk investing. Right. So it's either that person or it's the guy who sold his company has a big whack of cash.

[00:04:56]and just really doesn't want to lose it. You know, like maybe he's doing a little bit of angel investing and he's buying a beach house in Hawaii stuff, but he's wants to have some income. He just doesn't have to think about it again. It doesn't want to be a landlord. Doesn't want to have to think about it. Just safe, boring, reliable.

[00:05:17] Tucker: Safe and reliable, passive income. Yep. I got it. Okay. All right. So this is actually really simple. Those two are great. Here's where it gets a little tricky. What, what could you write about, what knowledge do you have that is valuable and interesting to those people? Right? So the people you just described, why are they going to care about what you're going to write?

[00:05:41]Jess: Because. Like, they love the thrill of being an entrepreneur. It's like, it's like going to Vegas, you know, is this business going to work? And it's adrenaline pumping. Right. But, and hence the reason they spent 15, 20, 25 years getting good at it to become a millionaire that way. Right. But, now they they're with their golfing buddies who are bragging about what a great investors they are.

[00:06:05] And this dude's like, I make million dollar YouTube videos for brands. I'm not a great investor. I'm a great guy at running a marketing agency. Right. And so they want to feel smart. They want to, they want to like, maybe not have to have pedal to the metal all the time, because like I have a close friend.

[00:06:26] She, she built her consumer products, business, a student about 8 million a year right now. And she regularly talks to me about her anxiety of what, if everything changes. What if this just goes away? Yeah. So we've been talking about, Hey, if you even had a couple million bucks at, you know, 5% cashflow, plus you got some appreciation, there's a, you know, there's a hundred grand a year for the rest of your life.

[00:06:48] No matter what you can put, put your grandkids, grandkids through college, you know? I don't know if that answers your question

[00:06:55] Tucker: sort of it does. It tells me why they'd be interested in, investing with you.

[00:07:00] Jess: Oh, why, why, what do they want to hear from me though?

[00:07:02] Tucker: Let me actually take a step backwards. The question.

[00:07:05] Yeah. super quickly one sentence. What would your book be about?

[00:07:11] Jess: It would be about applying Warren Buffett's principles to commercial real estate investing.

[00:07:16] Tucker: Okay. Explain those to me real quick.

[00:07:20] Jess: So most people in commercial real estate, they take a lot of debt. They take a lot of risks, speculating buying land and developing it and stuff like that.

[00:07:28]very few people buy existing cashflow streams. And so as a result, real estate can be super risky if you're speculating, if you're not buying something that has safety of principle and an adequate return. Right. and so Warren Buffett's principles about, so, so you look at somebody like Brookfield, okay, they've got $500 billion under management.

[00:07:51] They've done this. They've taken Warren Buffett's principles to real estate, except they're meeting with like the Qatari national investment authority who's going to put right a $4 billion check. They're not sitting with my buddy who's made $4 million last year to talk about. Does he want to, you know, does he want to put his little, tiny bit of money in, right.

[00:08:09] So, so I want to basically what Warren Buffett taught Brookfield brought to real estate, except they're busy meeting with giant pension funds, not meeting with my buddies. I want to teach my buddies. What, what Brookfield essentially did.

[00:08:25] Tucker: Okay. All right. So then, so the book is how to apply Warren Buffett's principles to commercial real estate, right?

[00:08:31] Yep. All right. And so then you're basically going to explain, here's why this really works well. Here's exactly how it works. Yep. All right. So, and then they're going to care because. So tell me, I get why they're going to care about investing with you. Why are they going to care about the book though?

[00:08:52] Jess: Because it gives them the chance to feel smart about investing that they've constantly had things telling them they're not smart about. Because Bloomberg and everybody else has been using such complicated language that mere mortals don't relate to. Right. And because they haven't spent 18 years of meaningful repetitions

[00:09:15] getting good at investing. And so this is like the reader's digest version of like, skip ahead, skip ahead. And, you know, don't have to go through quite so much pain to get good at investing so that when you're golfing with your buddies and they're bragging about their investments, you don't have to feel sheepish that you feel like you don't know what good investment approaches are.

[00:09:38] Tucker: This is like such an easy book. This is so good. All right. So let's, let's review. You want to get investors in your real estate trust. Got it. so who are those people? You're looking basically for two types who are very similar. Someone who has money and entrepreneurial with some extra, extra money.

[00:09:56] They want some passive income, but they don't want to deal with any of the BS of being in real estate. They don't want to be a landlord and they're not exactly sure how to kind of get in, or even if they know a little bit. They don't want to deal with all the BS of it, or you want someone who's just cashed out or someone who has a lot of money who, needs some diversity in their investments, but they still want cashflow.

[00:10:18] They want something safe, something that works well. Something basically like that, those two groups, and then what are you going to teach him? You're going to teach them essentially how to apply Warren Buffett's principles to real estate, and how to, and explain real commercial real estate investing in a way that is super simple, that they can understand, and that they can then explain to their buddies on the golf course, or their

[00:10:44] friends of the salon, they're a woman or whoever and sound just as smart as anyone else, knowing that they're, they have a smart, safe cashflow investment.

[00:10:54] Jess: Yeah. And a couple of my coauthors who will be on it. So one is my business partner who's owned and operated commercial real estate for 30 years. you know, that's how he made his millions.

[00:11:05] And then the CEO that we hired to run our REIT for us. It's my buddy, I've known for 17 years. He's bought over $2 billion worth of these buildings during his career. So he understands, he like, there's a difference when you're buying like a fourplex versus you're buying 15,000 apartment units. Right.

[00:11:26] Tucker: I could imagine.

[00:11:27] Jess: So, so for the added credibility in the nitty gritty of like, anyways, all I'm saying is I've got some experts to fill in some of the nitty gritty about commercial real estate that have the highest that have really high level credibility. And what I'm bringing to the table is this Brookfield Warren buffet approach of, you know, how you're not going to find a good deal buying what's popular, how, you know, how you know the difference between a contrarian investment that's nobody's doing it cause it's dumb.

[00:11:58] Versus how you can break it apart in, in very simple, plain English ways to recognize, you know, no, this has a really strong likelihood of paying this cashflow for a long time and the price you're paying for it now is a good multiple to buy it. Like my partner, John and I, and my brother who we ran our last fund together, we bought, we partnered with like $30 billion Husky and $50 billion Embridge.

[00:12:22] We were doing like. Big multimillion dollar energy investments on iPhone calculators. Like you do not need all this garbage with Greek letters in the formula. It's like, no, it's just not that difficult. And so I want to bring it down into plain English. So even if somebody doesn't go with us, if they're looking at another real estate fund or they're looking at a real estate deal, they can feel like they know what they're looking at.

[00:12:44] Tucker: Your book's going to teach them exactly how to think about this. And even on some level how to do it, at least from their perspective without,

[00:12:54] Jess: yeah. These same, these same principles, they can apply to buying their own fourplex or something. If they do want to be a landlord. Right. we just happen to be buying, you know, much larger, much higher quality, more diversified buildings in that, but the principles are the same. It's just the decimal points change.

[00:13:10] Tucker: Right. Exactly. All right, dude, this sounds like a seriously, like an obvious, this is a fast ball down the middle book. You have a very clear set of goals, very clear, specific audience, and a very clear reason why they are going to like this book, like why it matters to them.

[00:13:28] Why do they care? Right. So tell me right now, then, like, I feel like a salesman though, like literally what's stopping you right now. Cause like, this is. This is all like, it's almost, anti-climactic how like straight fastball down the middle.

[00:13:45] Jess: I did watch a whole bunch of your YouTube videos. And I was taking notes on this stuff and I've been calling my partners and say, should it be this and that?

[00:13:50] So this is like, this is book idea number three,

[00:13:55] Tucker: this is perfect position. This couldn't. I have nothing to say.

[00:13:57] Jess: Well, I just thought your step by step guide, basically.

[00:14:00] Tucker: Alright, well, good. I don't feel as bad now. I feel like my God, man, this is, this is exactly right. This is do, you could call it, but you know, Buffett's put like the how to use Buffett's principles for commercial real estate.

[00:14:13] That's not a great title, but that's perfect positioning. That's like, Oh, cause he's already a big star. Everyone knows he's a great investor. Everyone understands what that means. It means safety. It means cashflow. It means a predictability. Like this is great.

[00:14:30] Jess: I'll tell you the other thing too, is like, it's basically just the product that we wanted to own.

[00:14:35] Like I want to still do some Elon Musk stuff later in my life. Right, right. But I got a wife and four kids and like, you know, I made, I became a millionaire with enough to retire two different times in my twenties and lost it all both times.

[00:14:49] Tucker: Right?

[00:14:50] Jess: Like this third time I plan on keeping it, you know, hence the reason we've literally spent a decade reading 6,000 pages of Warren buffet books going flying to Ahmad, his shareholder meeting, buying courses, we've even written and taught our own courses to groups and one-on-one to CEOs.

[00:15:06]cause it was just so painful losing it all. Twice,

[00:15:10] Tucker: you know, just the very best books, teach others how to solve a problem that you haven't solved, which is like that, by the way, you just nailed your intro. Like I'm going to make up the facts. Cause I don't know him, but the story is there and it's awesome.

[00:15:28] The intro is, when I was 23, I, made my first million. In fact, I made 2.6 million. By the time I was 26, I had lost all of it, but don't worry. I rebounded by the time I was 29, I made 3.4 million. So I was set for sure. Right? No, by the time I was 31, I was worth nothing less than nothing. Cause I was in debt.

[00:15:57] I'm now 40. And I'm worth far more than I ever was in my, either of the times in my twenties. And the only reason is because of what, the principles I learned. And I'm now sharing with you in this book I'm in now like that if I care at all about real estate and money, cause I picked up the book about like that's Buffet's principles for commercial real estate.

[00:16:22] That intro on that one, of course I'm reading the whole thing.

[00:16:28] Jess: You know, I have a question for you. So, you know, we've done like 400 episodes of the podcast now. Right. And I look at the overwhelming majority of the high profile people that have been on and they have one or more books. Right. And I've been thinking about writing a book for about 15 years.

[00:16:46] I'm such an audio book, nerd, listening to everybody else's right. And, So last week I had Shane Snow. Do you know the book Smart Cuts?

[00:16:53] Tucker: I know Shane really well, really hung out. He’s a great dude.

[00:16:56] Jess: Okay. I had Shane on this show. It was great. So I invited them to like do a miniseries.

[00:17:03] So we just finished a seven-part mini-series now was like seven different 90 minute sections. We finished up last week. Okay. And he's talking to me about the level of thoughtfulness he brings to his book. Like he watched the series Alias. You know, the JJ Abrams one I'm like went through all the different, like how he starts things in the middle and he leaves cliffhangers and just like to get people's interest and stuff like that.

[00:17:26] So I guess the question for me is when Tiffany Haddish says I need Tucker to actually come do my book. What's the, what's the next level of thinking that you're bringing that maybe a first time author like me is not?

[00:17:42] Tucker: So. Let me put, I'll put this in, in your terms, in real estate. The worst thing you can do as a first time author is try and be Shane and I. Yeah. Right? Because Shane and I have been doing this both of us for decades, and there is nothing you can do in a short period of time that's gonna get you close to us, right.

[00:18:03] Just like, like I've never invested in real estate other than my house that I live in. Right. I'm not a real estate investor. And if I tried to do big time real estate deals, just like you did no way I could probably read your book and that doesn't exist yet, but should, and if I read that and if I actually do what you say, I'll get like 80% of the way there.

[00:18:22] Right. Which is close enough. And as long as I don't get in complicated deals, as long as I'm getting the fringe stuff, I'm going to be great. Right. Writing works exactly the same. Exactly. Like, I'm not trying to pitch my book here. That's why in my course, which is free, we, The Way We Teach Writing, we don't go super deep into storytelling details because most people naturally are actually pretty solid storytellers.

[00:18:47] We just give them the frameworks to use, to plug in. Right. Because once you start diving into the, I'm going to open a loop here, I'm going to reference it here. I'm going to semi-closed it here. I'm going to leave it to chapter. Say shit gets real complicated, sideways fast. Right. And so like Shane and I can do that because we've been, like you said, like, what are you going to use it in the years?

[00:19:13] Right. We've been doing it so long. Right? So that is a massive mistake. I see that first time authors make is they go try and learn from it, or they go try and imitate the best practitioners. It's part of why we built Scribe and not on purpose. I did not realize how elementary I was going to have to make the process.

[00:19:33]so that first timers could get it. But I also was shocked at how effective first-timers can be with an elementary process. Like you can get, you can absolutely do a book that is 60 to even 90% as good as something I would write as long as you stay as close as possible in your niche.

[00:19:56] Jess: So, so talk to me more about that.

[00:19:57] Tucker: Okay. So this book on real estate, right? this is going to be really good because you have spent decades doing this and you know, it up, down left, right. And center. And if you think of it as. I want to make the best instructional manual on the Buffet principles for commercial real estate. And you tell stories that are based there and facts that are based there and you really keep it there

[00:20:22] you're a total expert man. And so you're not an expert writer, but you are an absolute expert on this subject. And if I'm reading that book, the writing is really secondary. Now it can't be bad of course, but like, you're a smart dude. So I'm assuming a level of education that right. But you have, and then from there, the best thing to do is get a really high quality editor to help you take what you've already done.

[00:20:47] Right? You already did your vomit draft. We call it vomit drafts with a rough draft and then you've edited it. Let them, you know, pay them five or 10 grand and let them really dig in and worry about all of the story techniques and the editing techniques and that sort of stuff. it's way, way better than you trying to learn that in yourself, right?

[00:21:05] Because this skill of storytelling and this skill, of your knowledge are different things. You're not, cause if, if you were trying to write a book about your subject, the way that like, you could actually write a better book about your subject. Believe it or not, the Malcolm Gladwell, even though like he's a better writer, right?

[00:21:26] Cause he doesn't know your subject. And if you, if you, even, if you spent a year researching it, as we've learned from Gladwell's other books, he doesn't actually know the subject very well. Like he even admitted 10,000 hour rule. He got the research wrong. Like he got Anders, Ericsson stuff wrong.

[00:21:41] Right. So I would, and most people would always rather read experts. The problem is, here's the problem when experts try and sound like what they perceive experts sound like, as opposed to like, just talking colloquially, like what we just did you explain this really well. And I bet if we started diving in, I would totally get every single thing and I could do the math on my iPhone or whatever.

[00:22:07] Right. The problem is people like you will read, sit down and write a book and they'll think, Oh God, I've got to sound like a writer. Or I've got to sound like a fancy person in my field, or I've got to sound like a sophisticated expert. It's exactly what we talked about at the beginning. Right? as long as you avoid that, which is why the number one editing technique that we teach is, is we call it the read aloud, edit.

[00:22:33] We literally tell our authors to read their, once they've written the whole rough draft, they've done a full kind of like a high level, edit, a full deep content edit. They feel like it's pretty close. Read the whole book out loud and you will be shocked, shocked at how bad it is

[00:22:53] Tucker: not the content, writing because as soon as you, it's a weird trick of, of writing as if something reads or, reads out loud, well, then it will always read well on the page.

[00:23:07] Always every single time, if you can read out loud to me, like right now, if I were to read scribe method, my book that I got right here, it would, it would sound good on a podcast because I read the whole thing. I know it sounds good. Right. And as a result, it reads really well on the page. Always. There's never an exception.

[00:23:24] whereas you can think things read well on the page, but if you read it out loud and it doesn't sound well, it's not sounding well in people's minds. I'll tell you why. This is so crazy when you read in order to get the content, you know what you're doing right. In your head, you're reading it and you're in your mind.

[00:23:46] Yeah. Right. Which is it's, I didn't even think about this until we had a person go through guided author who's like a scholar, about, medieval times. Or they just knew a lot about it, I guess, or whatever. And they were like, you do realize that people used to read everyone, read out loud for hundreds of years, the idea of reading silently was like invented in the 17th century.

[00:24:08] And I'm like, what? He's like, Oh yeah. And I was like, Oh, no wonder the read aloud edit works so well. Right. Because humans are designed to communicate verbally and visually right. Auditory and visual, but like looking at bodies. Not text. Text is used a whole different part of the brain. It's a really, really weird thing.

[00:24:28] And so you can become a master of text like Shane and I are, or you can just read it out loud and get 80, 90% is good. Does that make sense?

[00:24:39] Jess: Yeah. So it brings up a few questions. First one. what kind of questions should a first time offer? Should a first time author be asking editors to figure out if they're the right editor or not?

[00:24:53] Tucker: Oh man, that's a, that's a big one. So here's what I would do. I would, if I'm looking for an editor and this is actually something I just did because I just wrote, I just wrote a style of book that was like the first time, first thing I've ever written like that. And so I went and found people who had edited other books like that. Right. So like in your case, I would find my favorite, like three real estate books or something like a real estate book that felt fun to read and see if you can't find the editor for that.

[00:25:30] Right. That's number one. Number two is, if you're looking at like a, let's say you're picking between 10 editors, right? Look at the books that they name that they added it. And then see which ones you liked the best. And like, if you really liked, like, I found one of my editors that I use routinely because, two of the books that she edited, I loved and they were very different.

[00:25:56] I'm like, okay, this is brilliant. Right? She can clearly edit. So those are probably the two best ways. The other way is testing. So you pick five editors. Give them like a few hundred dollars a piece to edit the same chapter and see what comes back.

[00:26:15] Jess: That's great advice. So, my next question is, I think about my past and I think why haven't, why don't I have any books done yet.

[00:26:22] Right. Cause I've been thinking about this so much for so many years and I'm sure some of it has to do with my insecurities of being criticized as writer, because everybody says that I write, sorry, a number of people have said, Oh, you just write like your talk, you write, like you talk. It doesn't really sound like writing, you know?

[00:26:37] And so I thought,

[00:26:39] Tucker: which is a very good thing.

[00:26:41] Jess: Well, my thought is I do so well talking. You know, maybe I should be recording, like have my partners, or have some of my staff interviewing me and talking out these chapters have, have it transcribed up and have like heavier help from ghost writers or editors to like, cause I know the concepts are solid.

[00:27:03] I don't have to, I let him have that much pride of like, and I have to be the one who wrote the pros per se. Do you have any guidance for navigating the, like, too much too little bounce beam there? Yeah.

[00:27:14] Tucker: So that, that is quite literally what my company does. That is our primary. We coach it. We have the process.

[00:27:20] We teach you what to do and you write it yourself. We coach you through, or we interview you. We use the exact same templates and everything, and we interviewed you and get it off. You can totally do that yourself though. You don't have to pay us. so here's, here's, there's a couple things. there's a whole like 20, 30 page chapter in my inscribed method book, which you can get on scrapbooks school.com.

[00:27:40] It explains it all. But the main principle is, when you're doing this, you really want to have someone interviewing you or interacting with you. It is a rare person who can deliver long monologues about this stuff without it sounding really weird, right?

[00:27:59] Jess: Yeah.

[00:28:00] Tucker: Really a conversation, humans are designed for conversation.

[00:28:03] Now I have had, we have had clients who were professional speakers who could talk for an hour straight and it was amazing and that worked well. But if that's not what you do. Then you want to a conversation. So what I would do in your case, Jess, is I would, let's say you wanted to write your book that way, the rough draft.

[00:28:20] Do you want it to, to do an audio record, which I think is a great idea. Get a friend of yours who has always wanted to learn about this stuff, but like never had time.

[00:28:30] Tucker: Right. And say, all right, let's take a Saturday. And I would do your outline ahead of time. So, you know exactly, like you've said, you've taught seminars.

[00:28:38] You probably know exactly how to walk people through this. So you have your outline, you know what you're going to teach them. Right. And then just press play and then say, okay, I'm going to walk you through this and then teach them like the first part. And then here's the big key. Ask them to hold their questions until the end.

[00:28:56] Because they are always going to ask you questions in the middle and it's going to derail you. Cause you know, so much so have like, you don't have to prepare your speech, just know, okay. For the first part for things for the second part acquisition, these six things. Know the four things are going to teach and then try and teach them as quickly as possible.

[00:29:16] Like be comprehensive but not exhaustive and then say, okay, what questions do you have for me? Right. And then you want to record the questions too, then you can teach the next part what questions, right? Because what that does is it gives you the framework for, by giving your four points before they interrupt you.

[00:29:32] You've got it all down. And then generally their questions will fill in the holes. You're sort of expert blindness. Right. And you're like, I forgot to talk about this. Or I gotta talk about this. I got to explain this. Right. And if you that's where I would start. And then you get that transcribed from rev, which is like a $1.20.

[00:29:50] If you want a human transcription, if possible, $1.25 a minute. And then, you can start that consider that not your rough draft. That is your pre rough draft. And then what I recommend is you literally put the rev transcripts up. And then next to it, you put another like Google doc or Microsoft word.

[00:30:08] You do not copy and paste you. If you're like most people, you're going to look at your transcript. You're going to think you had an amazing conversation and you did, and your friend's going to learn it. And you're going to look at your transcript. You're laughing because you've seen podcasts transcripts, and you're gonna look at a transcript and you think you're an idiot.

[00:30:23] Right. So, you don't want to try and edit your transcript. It's a huge pain in the ass. You want to read the transcripts and then rewrite what you were trying to say. You can pull a few sentences out every now and then when you nail stuff every now and then you'll just nail paragraphs, pull them over.

[00:30:36] It's fine. But for the most part, you're going to want to rewrite your point in a way that flows better on the page, which is a skill man that is a distinct skill. Some people talk in complete sentences and nail it. The first go, those are. Creepy weirdos. Like, I don't know. I'm not one of those. Yeah.

[00:30:57] Jess: So, tell me this, what's the difference?

[00:31:00] So like, you know, if I'm on your service, right. And that, you know, I can read the descriptions on what I get for 10 grand. Do I get for 30 grand? What I get for the a hundred thousand dollars plus, right. what's happening at the a hundred, a hundred thousand dollars plus level that maybe people don't get.

[00:31:17] You know, give us some more details of that level.

[00:31:20] Tucker: So this is normally what salespeople do is they explain all this, but honestly, man, it's mostly, there's two big things. One is, there's a lot of marketing stuff. Like the audio book is all the options that you can buy. Like 36 is kind of the base package for the interview.

[00:31:37] One and then the, the, the coach one where you write it yourself as 16 and then the interview is 36 and then that's like, no, it's cool. That's like, That includes everything from idea to finished book, but it doesn't include the audio book. It doesn't include, like any extended marketing. It doesn't include all that kind of stuff.

[00:31:53] Right. And so the hundred K includes all that. And then the other big thing is that it, it really, you just get, like one of our very best writers, you know? So like think of it like cars, like. If you want to spend, if you want to buy a Ferrari or a, the equivalent of a Ferrari or Lamborghini in ghostwriting is going to be someone like I'm going to be totally obnoxious.

[00:32:14] And Brian going to be someone like me, right? Like Tiffany has got to come to me with a big ass check and a big ass share of the backend. And it's like, okay, if I believe in her, in the message, then you get it. Right. So that's kind of obnoxious. But then like, if you like the, a Maserati let's say, or the role of the Range Rover, what out of high end Range Rover or the high end BMW.

[00:32:34]is like the ghostwriter, that's like a hundred to 150 grand and there's, you know, a hundred, maybe 200 of those. And they're amazing writers and they're incredible. but they're expensive. They're a hundred or 150 grand plus back in for, for traditional. So to get them. Without backend, you may have to pay 150 to 250 depending.

[00:32:56] Right? and then now below them, there's a tier of really, really good ghost writers who are not quite named ghost writers, but who will, they're the type who could take your book, Jess, and turn it from like a really good well-written expert book to like Shane Snow level, , expert book. Right. Which is not quite Shane because a big part of what Shane did is he created new ideas.

[00:33:20] Right. You're not creating, you're creating new ideas, but it's in your niche. So you're not asking the writer to create new ideas. You're just asking them to make your ideas, shine and pop on the page, which is much easier than creating new ideas. Right? So that person, that's the person that you're going to get with us.

[00:33:34] If you're spending a hundred grand, if you hire them independently of us, you're going to spend 50 to a hundred just for them. Like we can hire them at less because you know, there's no, there's no customer acquisition costs. I don't have to worry about payment. We have a defined structure. So we actually work with some of the best ghost writers in the world.

[00:33:54]and they they'll fill their downtime with our projects. Like if they, someone who's charging, let's say 75, a project we'll get three a year. Right. And so that's what is great for them, but they've got a lot of downtime and so they'll come to us and be like, okay, I can take one project this month and one in September and it's like, alright cool.

[00:34:12] And then we pair them with one of our high end people.

[00:34:15] Jess: Interesting. so next question. there's people who spend a lot of time on good writing, right. And then it feels like they feel like that was the end. You know, like, and they complain that nobody read their book and they, you know, like they see it as the finish line instead of the starting line.

[00:34:34] Can you, can you talk about seeing, like having your book finally edited as the starting line instead of the finish line?

[00:34:42] Tucker: Yeah, no, no. Editing is the finish line. The starting line is knowing is what we, what we started with. Well, go ahead.

[00:34:50] Jess: What I mean is people who think. If they write a good book, they shouldn't have to market it.

[00:34:55] That's what I mean by the story of like getting people to buy it.

[00:34:58] Tucker: Someone who had good pros, but nothing to say. No, no,

[00:35:00] Jess: no. Sorry. I mean like, yeah, you know, a good book is like admittance to the league. You didn't win the championship by having a good book, you know, just writing a good book. People aren't going to find it.

[00:35:10] You gotta market it.

[00:35:11] Tucker: Someone like you, who knows what they're talking about, hired a great editor, so that deep content, deep, contextual knowledge, and it pops off the page. Right. I wish books sold themselves, but they don't. Unfortunately, and if, if your, if your thought process is, but my book will be different.

[00:35:33] You are going to fail, right. There's one or two books a year that, catch fire, right? Like, educated by Tara Westover, right? Like that book came out of nowhere and caught fire, right. There's one or two a year that do that. They're almost always memoirs, almost always. And usually even those get something, something somewhere gave him a pop.

[00:35:56] Right. But for the rest of us who are mortals, there's no way to like, you don't, you can never expect anything's going to sell. So you've got to take it out there and market it and the way to market it. Here's the trick you got to remember. No one cares about your book. No one. They only care about what your book gets them, which is why the second question I asked you was who's your audience?

[00:36:22] And the third was, why are they going to care? Because if you know that before you write the book, then your marketing is really easy for you. The marketing's easy, it's high level entrepreneurs who have cash, either cash flow or big chunks of cash. Right. Okay. I know where those people are. And then the question is why are they going to care?

[00:36:42] Because you're going to teach them how to use their cash, to make them money and be safe, reduces anxiety, get into real estate. These are all things they want. So you have a book that helps them solve their problem and create as a transformation for them. Okay, great. So now all you gotta do is get in front of them.

[00:37:00] Right. And, and talk about the benefits, not about you and your book. Cause they don't care. I don't care about you, Jess. I don't care about your book. I don't care about commercial real estate. I care about how do I put my money somewhere that's safe and I don't have to think about it. Oh, you're going to teach me that using Buffet's principles, who I already know and respect.

[00:37:18] Tucker: Okay, cool. Now I'm listening. Right. That's all marketing is you get the positioning right early, you deliver on the promise in the book. And then you put the book in front of the people who could most benefit from it and explain to them why it's going to help them. That's it.

[00:37:34] Jess: That's great. It is funny when you say it, it sounds so simple, right.

[00:37:39] Because you know how to break it down and,

[00:37:43] Tucker: but when you do it, it gets confusing. Right. I know for all of us

[00:37:46] Jess: well, and I think. You know, I think that's the difference between the years that you've put into this versus

[00:37:53] Jess: versus the rest of us, right. Where we can look at, you know, we can look at lists of like the 52 things you should do to market your book.

[00:38:00] Right. And, you know, Which four of those really matter. And like, it's not like the other 48 are no good, but there's four that really matter, like 90, out of a hundred. And there are other ones matter of 10 out of a hundred.

[00:38:13] Tucker: And you know what? Hold on. Let me tell you the secret though. Here's, what's crazy.

[00:38:17] This will makes book marketing so complex and annoying. If someone wrote that, like the top 50 things to do to market your book, I would bet you that almost every one of those 50 things is really important for a specific type of book. Right. And so that, that's the problem with book marketing is that there's no such thing as the way you market books.

[00:38:39] There is only a bunch of tools. I mean, you got to know which tools to use for which book and how to use them

[00:38:47] Jess: and which audience

[00:38:49] Tucker: look, books totally different. Totally, totally different than the way you would market a real estate book. Like there would be almost no overlap between the two things, right?

[00:38:58] Like, books are very unusual. It's not like, like there's, there's a way you sell a car. Like, there's not really like, again, unless you are Ferrari or Lamborghini. Everyone sells cars exactly the same from 10 grand to a hundred grand. And they're all sold exactly the same books. It's all over the Mark all over the map, dude.

[00:39:17] Jess: So let me ask you this, you know, I think about my audience, like you remember, like the rich dad, poor dad books from 20 years ago. Right. And they were maybe like a little oversold about just how easy this is going to be. And it was, you know, it was. It was almost like a, which is funny. Cause I love the books, but in a way there's a little bit of infomercial in them.

[00:39:39] You know what I mean?

[00:39:40] Tucker: That's how he is now. He's okay.

[00:39:42] Jess: The funny thing is the guy completely changed my life because of books like rich, like cashflow quadrants, where I realized like, Oh, I don't want to trade my hours for dollars. And at the same time, like I am looking for a different feel than that. You know what I mean?

[00:39:54] So it's like, I want to bring it to just regular humans who don't consider themselves investment experts or real estate experts per se. Right. But I don't want to go down to like an infomercial level and any guidance on how to, how to not be like, you know, expert who is talking above everybody's head. And, but not seeing so low that you're like sound like your car sales guy.

[00:40:19] Tucker: The God's honest truth is I would be shocked if you did anything that sounded like a used car. So you just don't, I mean, I've spent two episodes now talking to you, there is nothing about you that says used car guy. If you, if you asked me, how can I sound like that? I could tell you, I guess, but like that.

[00:40:42] So this is my way of telling you this annoys authors when I tell them this, but it really is the truth. What authentic means in a book is you not trying to be anything other than who you are, and you're not trying to teach anything other than what you know. Right. And so like, that's why we get people who are like, you know, they're like, Oh, I want to write a book on whatever sales it's like, okay.

[00:41:05] What do you know about sales? Like, ah, nothing same as everyone else. Like, okay. You shouldn't write the book on sales, right? Those are the people who sound scammy. Now look, Kawasaki made a specific choice. He followed in the vein of some other real estate people, more kind of, people who ran seminars.

[00:41:22] And he wanted to sound like that because there is a group of people who respond to that. Your audience are not those people though. You're already, absolutely not. And so if you sound like Kawasaki, you are going to repel your audience, but the fact that you already have multiple funds, you've already raised money from those people tells me, you know, how to talk to them.

[00:41:43] All right. So write in this book exactly that way.

[00:41:47] Jess: Yeah. And I think about, I can't remember if it was one of your videos or one of your blog posts I was reading this morning about, kind of like, I felt like what you're saying is like Jess, forget about yourself and be really worried about being helpful.

[00:42:00] That's kind of what I got out of it. And this anyways, maybe that's just the advice.

[00:42:05] Tucker: It's why the idea of you teaching your book to a friend and recording it using that is a great idea because it, you can't do anything in that moment except to actually help your friend. Right. As long as it's like an actual person who actually doesn't know and really does want to learn, then it will be, your book will be amazing because it will have all that energy.

[00:42:27] If you try teaching the thing, you know, in love to someone you care about.

[00:42:31] Jess: Yeah. You know, another question I have kind of still in the marketing vein, as they think about, you know, my friends, these well-to-do entrepreneurs. Right. and I'm thinking about like the CEO clubs or the LinkedIn conversations or stuff where they're at, but I hear stuff like Tim Ferriss talking about when he came out with the four hour workweek that he wanted to show up, like he knew his demographic and he wanted to show up everywhere for that demographic, even at the rest of the country, hadn't heard of him.

[00:42:58]right. In Chicago, in New York and Silicon Valley or whatever. well, starting there, when, when you think about this kind of like, you know, probably either an older millennial or gen X or right. Or young boomer, basically, who self-made entrepreneur, maybe does, or doesn't have a college degree.

[00:43:18] Right. And besides being at, you know, young president's organization or something like that, what are the other watering holes? Do you think that I should look for to, to get the, to get something like this in front of people like that? 

[00:43:29] Tucker: There's so many. so if you want to, in person, I would look at, well, obviously there's EO, there's a BSI.

[00:43:38] There's I mean, there's a hundred of those groups, that I would look at, you know, what I might do, I don't know, but my guess is there's a group of people that, it's in their benefit to talk about your product, right? Like, I'll give you an example. one of our wealth advisors, clients, he specializes in high net worth divorce women.

[00:44:04] Like he manages their money. And so, he. Took copies of his book to every high end divorce attorney in his city, huge city. Right. And he gave like each of them like a hundred copies because every divorce attorney, when a woman comes in, the first thing she asks is, I forget what the first question, but the second is always, what do I do about money?

[00:44:23] And the attorney by law is not allowed to give her financial advice and cannot take a referral fee. So what the attorneys do, like they'd love that he gave him the book because it's like, here's exactly what you need to do if you have. You know, assets of 10 million or more, and you get divorced. Here's what to do.

[00:44:39] And he walked the exactly through he's like in the attorneys can say, listen, I read this book, or I haven't read this book, but I know people who are with him and they really liked him. I don't recommend it or not recommended, but, I have a copy. You're welcome to take it. It's a really good place to start.

[00:44:54] Right. And so, like, he don't do any other marketing now because every attorney in his city hands out his book to women, because it makes them look good. Right. So like, I don't know where your main referrals are coming, but that's the first thing I would do in your case, instead of going to other groups, I would think who's already talking about me and how do I make it easier on them?

[00:45:15] Jess: Yeah. Okay. That's great. You know, just knowing my personality, the little bit from a couple of hours we spent together, what kind of rookie mistakes would you think I'm likely to make? Or what, what just kind of, you know, my temperament a bit, you know, what the book's supposed to be about? What kind of just, you know, generalize things of like, Hey, my guess is with your personality type, you're going to get bored and procrastinate or you're going to whatever.

[00:45:40] Tucker: You're definitely going to, at some point, you're going to fall into, a rabbit hole and put way too much info in the book, which is fine. You can always cut that later, but your instinct is going to be, I would guess to want to teach more and explain more, and really dive deep into the, the cool guts of this, because it's so interesting to you, which is almost always what extras want to do, but like, You need to, if you do that in your vomit drop, that's fine.

[00:46:08] But, and when you're editing, you got to fight that urge and go the other way. You got to make things as simple as possible. And here's the frame that I use for that. I need to teach this in a way where this person can tell it to, can teach it to their friends. Right. So like, and for you, that's perfect.

[00:46:27] Cause you talked about like, my avatar feels dumb on the golf course with other investors and they don't know how to invest. Okay, cool. So you want your book to be so simple that they can have at least a 10 or 15 or 20 minute conversation about real estate investing and they can sound smart. So that doesn't mean more facts and figures.

[00:46:46] It means really simple explanations and then really good examples and stories that are sticky that stay in their brain.

[00:46:56] Jess: That makes so much sense.

[00:46:57] Tucker: Yeah, that's the thing I would focus on the most for you. the other thing is I would, we have like a whole fear solving exercise that we put our clients through.

[00:47:07] And I would really focus on that because the fact that you've waited this long to write a book, you have an obstacle in your in fact, even there's a, one of the things I asked you 30 minutes ago, why haven't you written this? And you deflect it and you went a different direction with the answer. That tells me that you have a deep fear somewhere.

[00:47:26] My guess is it's around identity with you. Which is where it is for most people. So it's an easy guess, but there's something about either being an author or writing a book or releasing the book that is very threatening to some part of you, you know? And so, or you can think about that the better.

[00:47:44] Jess: Yeah, I think. I think the reason that I haven't got one out this year is because we are too busy launching the fund to put the effort in kind of thing. But I think about all the previous years, and I think it's like, I appreciate great books so much that maybe I wasn't being honest about the like, well, I'm probably going to have to write eight books before I have a good one.

[00:48:06] Tucker: You know, like, like or you're telling yourself, make yourself do a book.

[00:48:11] Jess: Like, I think it's like, Some quest for perfection, some quest to have like the book that like, to be able to write the book, like the ones that I admire so much and thinking I've got to do that the first time.

[00:48:24] Tucker: Do you know what perfectionism is used psychologically for emotionally?

[00:48:28] Hmm. It's a, and it's a defense against rejection. Hmm. You're afraid you weren't good enough. And a book for anyone. It's easy to be like, well, I'm, I'm, I'm hiding right here. A book means you can't hide anymore from whatever it is you're afraid of.

[00:48:45] Jess: Well, no, no, but I hear here's thing.

[00:48:47]you know, I think about, so at our charity child rescue, you know, that combats the child trafficking, right? I've got all these. You know, Delta force and seals and FBI and CIA guys. Right. And their community is very much like high school. Like your rep is such a big deal in the teens. Be like, it is, it is like being like on a high school sports team or something in a lot of ways. Okay.

[00:49:09] Jess: And that has its benefits and it has its downtimes of like, if you have one big screw up, there's not a lot of chance for repentance. You know what I mean? Like that reps goes with you. Well, finance is like full of people who are showing off in their sense of importance comes from how big their bank account is or how many Ferrari's they have or whatever, you know what I mean?

[00:49:27] Right. And so there's a constant tearing each other down as a way to build yourself up that can, that can happen. And, you know, I didn't like the guys that I'm competing against. A lot of them worked at Goldman Sachs after they went to Harvard. Right. And I'm an art school dropout. And, and, and plus I was like a 28 year old CEO of my last fund.

[00:49:48] So I like, wasn't old enough. Didn't go to Harvard to work at Goldman

[00:49:51] Jess: and, you know, and it had all these things. Right. And I felt like, what?

[00:49:56] Tucker: Hold on. You're telling yourself such a story now.

[00:49:58] Jess: Well, that's, that's the thing is

[00:50:01] Tucker: manages well,

[00:50:02] Jess: that's but that's my point. I've like, I do think there is a lot of like, Like this, image management thing that held me back of like, you know, I've read so much Warren Buffett and I read his mentors and I've read his followers and I've taken their classes.

[00:50:17] And like, I paid the price on a lot of that stuff. But then I think like, I don't even know if this is a conscious thing, but I wonder if I, I sense that like I'm worried, well, if I get one thing wrong, then it will discount the last 11 years of study or something, you know, like

[00:50:32] Tucker: of course the, the fear boils down to, I'm afraid that I'm going to make a mistake and the book's going to be bad and everyone's going to laugh at me and I'm going to lose my business.

[00:50:42] And then I'm going to die alone and hungry and broke and fail. My family basically gets into 100% super normal. Yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:50:52] Jess: this has been great, but any other, any other rookie mistakes that you see happen a lot or just any other guidance here?

[00:51:00] Tucker: The other big ones. So like, I, like I said, fear the big one, not thinking enough about your audience and what they need is a big one.

[00:51:07] The other big one is not creating a plan and sticking to it, like creating a plan with accountability. so, We run this workshop. I've taught hundreds of authors, how to do this. I I've gotten to the point where I can pretty much tell you at the end of the workshop, who's going to finish and who's not.

[00:51:25] And the number one thing that I use to determine that is how serious did they take the planning section? When we like lay out the plan, they have to lay out their own plan and they put it on their calendar and whatever, how seriously did they take that? Right. The ones who take that seriously and who actually build in accountability and follow it, finish. Those who don't usually don't.

[00:51:55] Jess: Yeah, it's a gut check right. Of rubber meets the road of like, am I going to try or am I going to do it?

[00:52:03] Tucker: It's related to the fear stuff, because it's easy to make a plan. Like that's not hard. But who's actually going to go through with it. You've got to deal with your fear first. Like you have.

[00:52:14] It's why we spend two hours on that in the workshops is really, it's woven through the whole thing. It's the thing I like, dude the information on how to write a book is honestly not that hard. Like I took everything out there and I made it way simpler. And so now at this point, there's really no, excuse me.

[00:52:31] Like you walked in with a perfect position. It was a little depressing, there was nothing for us to talk about around positioning. Cause you'd nailed it so well, but like it goes to show that a good system within a smart person applies, works. So why don't more people finish their books because they're afraid and they will not deal with that fear.

[00:52:51] They're afraid of changing their identity. They're afraid of I'm telling you, Jess. I think, I think more people are afraid of success actually than they are failure. There's a lot of people who are afraid of failure, maybe as many, I'm not sure if it's more of a very close. Okay. And I didn't understand this until I really started to break it down and someone was really honest about it.

[00:53:12] They're like, well, what if I succeed? What happens then? And they kind of ran through all the things that would change in their life. And I was like, Oh, of course, it's no different. Actually you're afraid you're going to fail. You're going to end up dying alone. You're free to succeed. You're going to end up dying alone because things change.

[00:53:28] We all have a part of our brain that psychologists called the ego. I like to call the protective self its entire job is to keep us the same. Right because we're alive now. And so if we just don't change, we're not going to die. That's the way that part of our brain thinks it's a great, you want it fear is good.

[00:53:45] The protective self is good. If you're an emergency situation, if your car's on fire, et cetera, it doesn't help you when you're trying to create things. When you're trying to build something new, when you taking a calculated risk, it holds you back. It's almost like a, think of it like a really over-protective CFO, you need a CFO, you want your CFO to do his job, right.

[00:54:09] But a CFO who's got too much power means the company never grows and stagnates and dies. Same thing.

[00:54:16] Jess: I love it. Well, maybe to finish off here, we were talking a little bit before the recording started our, our mutual friend  was saying to ask you about, just kind of your insight and the difference of writing a memoir versus any other kind of nonfiction.

[00:54:31] Tucker: So the big, big thing is writing a memoir, writing a memoir is for you. Publishing, it's gotta be for you. You edit for your audience and publish for your audience, but you write it for yourself. Right. Whereas a nonfiction book, you're going to get things for it, but you're not writing no point.

[00:54:50] Is it ever about you? Even though the first question I asked you is what do you want then? Everything else you do is in service of that walked right. Like you want more clients for your fund, but the book can't be, give me money for my fund, because then it won't work. The book's gotta be, I'm going to help you get what you want.

[00:55:11] And for a lot of those people, the right answer is give you money for your fund, for them to get what they want.

[00:55:15] Jess: So even if it was 5%, a small percentage, right

[00:55:19] Tucker: What

[00:55:21] Jess: I'm saying, most of the readers probably won't, but even a small percentage of them. Does great for us right

[00:55:27] Tucker: now, of course. I mean, absolutely.

[00:55:28] Especially with your economics, a small percentage, but like your book actually is going to apply. There are some books who honestly, they don't sell any copies except to potential clients. And that's great. Like we've had so many authors who sold 500 copies of a nonfiction book. And yet made $3 million, right?

[00:55:46] Because like everyone who bought it either considered or was a client and they were really niche, which is fantastic. Yours is broader yours, you could sell, you could sell five or 10,000 copies of this book in the first year. Like, if you do a little bit of marketing, because everyone wants more money, a lot of people are interested in real estate, especially we're about to see a, like a lot of changes in commercial real estate, a lot of spaces going to open up for new people to come in

[00:56:12]with new ideas, I could see your book doing really well among people who you're right. Who have either no, no desire or no chance of being a client of yours. But all that does is raise your esteem and status with clients. You know, like if someone in my company reads your book and loves it and starts investing in commercial real estate, and I see them and I'm like, you just bought a fourplex, we pay you 70 grand.

[00:56:35] How did you do this? Right. And they explain that, dude, I read this book and I'm like, Oh man. All right, maybe I'll go check it out. I'm like, Oh, this is actually for me. He just figured out how to do it from there. Yeah. I love it.

[00:56:48] Jess: Well, so give us the website again for people who want to come take the course and find out more about you guys.

[00:56:54] Tucker: bookschool.com.

[00:56:56] Jess: Okay. anything else you want to leave people with?

[00:57:01] Tucker: No, I mean, I believe everyone else should write a book, you know, like I believe that forever, but it's just, when, when you're ready, we'll be there. Whether you pay us or you don't pay us, we're always going to give all the information for free.

[00:57:12] We're always going to help everyone do it. Whenever you're ready. We're there.

Jess: I love it. Hey, thanks for doing this.

This has been great. My pleasure, man. So are you, hold on. So hold on. Here's the thing, are you going to write your book or not? You're going to start. Yep. You are.

[00:57:25] Jess: I've been having conversations with my partners and we're kind of.

[00:57:29] Just deciding, like how valuable is it to the fund for me to have a book and you know, what level of editor, what level of folks are we going to be put behind this instead of, you know, Jess vanity project, can we actually take this serious and make it, you know, make it so good that people are passing on to other people and people actually find out about it.

[00:57:52] Tucker: I'll tell you. I would be shocked if, if you could spend 50 grand in any better way. Shocked and I mean, 50 grand, like, like consider your marketing budget, whatever it is. I would be shocked if you get a better ROI on any 50 brands.

[00:58:08] Jess: Well, again, 400 episodes of the podcast later. I just see that over and over.

[00:58:14] I feel like I've been hit in the face with a cricket bat. Like, Hey, this is an extremely, you know, it's not mandatory, but it's pretty darn close, mandatory tool for becoming a high profile expert in a sector.

[00:58:28] Tucker: There you go.

[00:58:30] Jess: Love it. Okay, everybody. Thanks for listening.